@liaizon if you're just referring to there finally being at least one example of all the pieces of the puzzle being run third-party (or close to that) etc. like @rosano seems to be suggesting I think these are still baby steps especially if we are talking about regular people actively using and understanding in significant numbers.

@douginamug

@lrhodes @liaizon

It is a very, very, very small percentage of the Fediverse that is engaging this in abusive, hyper-aggressive bullying behavior.

But, they have had a negative effect on the Fediverse.

@liaizon @undead fair enough! Drama over. I'm happy to discuss protocol philosophies. I think the activity pub approach to funding is probably the most ideologically pure as ideally social protocols are supposed to be public good. Like water infrastructure. So it makes sense that it's co-owned.
Where I disagree is that I think it's hard but *possible* to involve for-profit incentives in a way that doesn't prevent the network from flourishing.

@liaizon @undead The reason why I have such a strong opinion against ActivityPub is that I saw, among other horror stories, how one of the most prominent cypherpunk builders of the ETH community tried to migrate from X to end up being banned by a large ActivityPub server for being a "capitalist". (This guy is not the typical despicable crypto bro. He's a thoughtful builder.)
So probably what I dislike is NOT the ideologies (if anything I appreciate the ideal), but really, it's the mob mentality.

@liaizon @undead And the server-based moderation doesn't help here. Users feel trapped, it makes things worse. But to be fair it's not specific to activity pub. Bluesky has its own echo chamber, and X as well. But at least the underlying philosophy behind atproto tries to create bridge between groups rather than segregating them in echo chambers.

@reiver @liaizon I would guess that the person who told you that had been involved in an opt-in/opt-out dispute. That seems to be the development issue that exercises fediverse users the most. Which is not to excuse the behavior, but that /is/ one fundamental cultural difference between here and there: Opt-out is the default assumption there. (Which is borne out by the next post in your thread, where a dev says they prefer BS because it provides the user data needed for an AI-driven filter.)

@liaizon @rosano just to give some examples of the issues end users face even on ATproto when there's decentralization:
- where should I register is still a source of confusion
- you will still run into https://bsky.app/ links that you need to figure out can be accessed through your own app whatever that may be
- your provider going down will still cause you to lose your data unless you've been making backups

The more complex architecture adds even more potential sources of confusion IMO

@lrhodes @liaizon

Just to say it explicitly, for anyone else reading this:

Regarding:
AI & BS vs Fedi

Nowadays, when most people say "AI" they tend to mean LLMs and Diffusion Models.

But. the type of AI referred to in that post is not an LLM or Diffusion Model. But the type of AI that has been around for decades, most people (in certain parts of the world) already use (whether they realize it or not)

Ex of that other type of AI: anti-SPAM filters, reading hand written address on mail, etc.

@liaizon

... What uh... What exactly constitutes extreme ideology in the quoted text?

Acknowledging the existence of Palestinians? Is that all it takes now?

"Anarchist anti-capitalist free culture side of networks" isn't a political ideology... It's protocls like IRC. Usenet.

So... I can only assume we have a problem with other human beings _existing_.

Is... Is my response the type of extreme political ideology you'd like to avoid on the fediverse? 🤨

@nicobao

@nicobao@fosstodon.org tell me you've never experienced oppression without saying you've never experienced oppression

If people talking offense to the words you publicly posted to the Internet is oppression, you need to grow the fuck up and look around

@squeakypancakes @liaizon

@401matthall @liaizon
Dear Matt, you're misunderstanding my initial tweet. I was not referring to Palestinians. Read the comments in this thread to understand the context.

@nicobao @liaizon

A mob. We're acting like _a_ mob.

Anyway, you took the original words out of context. No one said ANARCHISTS rule.

They said they preferred the anarchist anti-capitalist _nature_ of federated networks.

If you think those are the same, you might've earned some of the traffic you're getting.

@nicobao @liaizon

Nicolas,

I'm looking and _maybe_ I've missed it. If so, I genuinely apologize, but it _appears_ that you take issue with the use of the words 'anarchist' and 'anti-capitalist'.

I'm just _strongly_ suggesting that you may have misunderstood the original toot that you responded to.

I'm 98% confident the original poster wasn't making a political statement but more a reference to the organic nature of federated networks.

If your issue was with something else... It's unclear.

@401matthall @liaizon yes collectively you're behaving like one. And considering your last words, you're basically saying I deserve a torrent of tweets making me look like a fascist pro-genocide asshole just because I have differing opinions on technicalities of social protocols.
Sorry but if that's how you think a healthy community should function it's a bad look for ActivityPub.

@nicobao @squeakypancakes @liaizon

Just trying to help you out here:
- you came in to quote toot aggressively and have mentioned the (part of the?) Fediverse's "extreme political ideology" it makes you run away,
- its mob mentality,
- how when people say stuff about you it's defamation and extreme and people need introspection,
- it is harassment,
- we guys are oppressing you,
- we guys are mobs,
- it's insane

but on the other hand, when you say stuff it's "what am I oppressing?"

@nicobao @liaizon

You didn't express differing opinions about social protocols. You expressed a strong dislike for extreme political ideology.

...

What're we arguing about here?

@401matthall @liaizon maybe I did! For "anarchist" I get it. For anti capitalist that doesn't make sense to me. Nothing prevents anybody at the protocol level from monetizing access to their API or other aspect of their server. No matter federated or not.

@nicobao @liaizon

... I don't know how to respond to this. I'm genuinely agog.

You're literally posting from a FOSS-todon.org account and you're talking about monetization.

I think part of the reason you may be catching so much flak right now is that it _seems_ like you're expecting an audience for a technical discussion and what you've found is a social discussion.

These things _are not_ equal.

@401matthall @liaizon I have a strong dislike of how strongly the ActivityPub crowd think about anticapitalism and anti-VC to the point the network feels so toxic in this regard that nobody with differing opinions would even join and stay.
It's not just the OP, it's pervasive across the network.

@nicobao @liaizon

You may find folks who are interested purely in the technical aspects of your project but you are _certainly_ going to find folks who take a dislike to the monetization mindset.

I, for one, have no interest in participating in a project that _demands_ a financial commitment. I strongly suspect this is the crux of the resistance you're encountering.

I donate to my instance because I _respect_ the effort that goes into maintaining and running an instance.