@liaizon this story feels a lot like the solid project https://solidproject.org/

Big splash at the beginning, some nerds get involved... but it's been years now, and when I tried to actually use one of the apps using it, UX was atrocious and I had to join a matrix room to get it working. Now I know I'm not the l33test hacker, but come on!

@liaizon Yep, said pretty much the same thing the other day.

To me, the one key feature we need is the ability to disable replies, and maybe also control who can reply, those are top 1 and 10 requests on Mastodon's GitHub, and both have been open for several years.

The team's response: it's too hard. Which, fair enough. But putting any effort into UX/UI polishing, as needed as that is, will be wasted as so many people already left because of the constant harassment and gatekeeping.

I also pointed out that by the time Bluesky's VC money runs out, there might already be enough independent communities running the full ATProto stack, so people will just be able to migrate without needing to ever look at the fediverse again.

@douginamug @liaizon bsky is already usable by normal people imo, probably will get better from here

@liaizon Yep, said pretty much the same thing the other day.

To me, the one key feature we need is the ability to disable replies, and maybe also control who can reply, those are top 1 and 10 requests on Mastodon's GitHub, and both have been open for several years.

The team's response: it's too hard. Which, fair enough. But putting any effort into UX/UI polishing, as needed as that is, will be wasted as so many people already left because of the constant harassment and gatekeeping.

I also pointed out that by the time Bluesky's VC money runs out, there might already be enough independent communities running the full ATProto stack, so people will just be able to migrate without needing to ever look at the fediverse again.

@nicobao @liaizon

Just because something isn't an insult for you, doesn't make the application of it by you any less of an attempt at an insult.

And because a number of people on Fedi may disagree with you, doesn't make it a mob mentality. It means that people have been subjected to those rhetorical tools in the past, generally in bad faith as a form of harm, and it is likely you are pissing off even more people because of your particular (and somewhat tone deaf) perspective.

@douginamug @liaizon bsky is already usable by normal people imo, probably will get better from here

@rosano @liaizon and this really is a success story AFAICT!

Anyway, before Facebook closes shop, we need all the horses in this race to giddy up.

Emotionally, Fedi will always be my horse, but I'm OK if another "wins".

@rosano @douginamug @liaizon whether or not the protocol allows for federation they're basically just a centralized platform though. That has let them avoid much of the confusion people have with federation but if they were to ever fulfill the promise of being decentralized they'de have to tackle that issue just like fediverse platforms have to.

@rosano @douginamug @liaizon whether or not the protocol allows for federation they're basically just a centralized platform though. That has let them avoid much of the confusion people have with federation but if they were to ever fulfill the promise of being decentralized they'de have to tackle that issue just like fediverse platforms have to.

@liaizon Seems to me that development on AT sped up *at the expense of* development on AP.

That is to say, a lot of the people who've gone all-in on AT were building here before, but have pretty much abandoned AP development. And it's worth examining why AT development was so much more appealing for those folks.

@undead @liaizon the thing is I didn't ask to come here. OP took a screenshot, posted it here and then I received all these notifications misinterpreting my tweet and accusing me of things I don't even mean.

I genuinely do not like the "mob" mentality of ANY community. It's human nature but it's most of all a byproduct of "twitter-like" social apps
I get your point though I should have better phrased that initial tweet. I would have avoided unwillingly offending people and creating this drama.

@ikuturso @rosano @douginamug a lot has changed in recent months on this front.

@lrhodes @liaizon

I've been to some of the Bluesky / ATmosphere conferences.

You are correct that there are former AP people over there (at AT) now.

I talked to a number of them. This (at the following URL) is a common reason I heard for why they switched from AP to AT:

@reiver ⊼ (Charles) :batman: (@reiver@mastodon.social)

One person saying — builders have mostly left Mastodon (and gone to Bluesky), because when developers try to build on Mastodon, they get yelled at, and maybe even receive death threats. #ATmosphereConf

Mastodon (mastodon.social)

(I am quoting / paraphrasing someone who switched AP to AT. But, I heard others say similar, too.)

...

@nicobao @undead you directly participated in this discussion by quote posting my post here with your commentary on the other side of the bridge. If you didn't want to participate in the discussion you could have simply not quoted me. I brought you back into this side of the discussion by tagging you directly cause I saw you also had an account here and I thought your view (while very different then mine) to be worth including directly.

@liaizon @undead fair enough! Drama over. I'm happy to discuss protocol philosophies. I think the activity pub approach to funding is probably the most ideologically pure as ideally social protocols are supposed to be public good. Like water infrastructure. So it makes sense that it's co-owned.
Where I disagree is that I think it's hard but *possible* to involve for-profit incentives in a way that doesn't prevent the network from flourishing.

@liaizon @undead The reason why I have such a strong opinion against ActivityPub is that I saw, among other horror stories, how one of the most prominent cypherpunk builders of the ETH community tried to migrate from X to end up being banned by a large ActivityPub server for being a "capitalist". (This guy is not the typical despicable crypto bro. He's a thoughtful builder.)
So probably what I dislike is NOT the ideologies (if anything I appreciate the ideal), but really, it's the mob mentality.

@lrhodes @liaizon

I've been to some of the Bluesky / ATmosphere conferences.

You are correct that there are former AP people over there (at AT) now.

I talked to a number of them. This (at the following URL) is a common reason I heard for why they switched from AP to AT:

@reiver ⊼ (Charles) :batman: (@reiver@mastodon.social)

One person saying — builders have mostly left Mastodon (and gone to Bluesky), because when developers try to build on Mastodon, they get yelled at, and maybe even receive death threats. #ATmosphereConf

Mastodon (mastodon.social)

(I am quoting / paraphrasing someone who switched AP to AT. But, I heard others say similar, too.)

...

@liaizon if you're just referring to there finally being at least one example of all the pieces of the puzzle being run third-party (or close to that) etc. like @rosano seems to be suggesting I think these are still baby steps especially if we are talking about regular people actively using and understanding in significant numbers.

@douginamug

@reiver @liaizon I would guess that the person who told you that had been involved in an opt-in/opt-out dispute. That seems to be the development issue that exercises fediverse users the most. Which is not to excuse the behavior, but that /is/ one fundamental cultural difference between here and there: Opt-out is the default assumption there. (Which is borne out by the next post in your thread, where a dev says they prefer BS because it provides the user data needed for an AI-driven filter.)

lol cool cool