@laurenshof @liaizon interactions between AP software devs is painful to watch sometimes, and the lack of interest from imolementers to work on standards is truly impressive.

@neauoire @nicobao @liaizon
the way this discussion went gives me hope for humanity (not /s, i'm serious)

@thisismissem @laurenshof I really really don't understand why so many ap devs just refuse altogether to participate in the standardiazion process. I wonder how we could make FEPs more exciting for people. How much of this is a vibe thing

@liaizon @laurenshof because politics and fights and strong opinions divide us.

Standards work, particularly at the W3C, attracts a certain type of person, and that's usually very different to builders.

@thisismissem @liaizon @laurenshof 2¢: I'm writing my first FEP right now, it's a big one, and all the implementers have been great. Bringing their ideas and goals and perspectives, being polite, constructive and helpful. Might be a reflection of who's there (or who isn't), but hey.

The only hurdle so far is that no one seems to want to write. Then again, not having to merge other people's chunks of text into a cohesive document has its upsides.

@julian @liaizon @laurenshof wait until after the FEP is written and published..

@julian @thisismissem @laurenshof happy to see an optimistic take here! Can't wait to see the implementers list start popping off

@thisismissem from my perspective, I don't feel comfortable writing a specification until I have verified it with a proof of concept. And by the time the proof of concept is done to my satisfaction, usually the community has moved to another solution to doing the same thing so it becomes kinda of a moot point.

@liaizon @laurenshof

The fediverse is anticapitalist I shout from the tallest mountain. The fediverse is explicitly an anarchist project I whistle into the wind. The fediverse is not the protocol, it is not a technology, it is an ideology above all that human communication should not be controlled by companies or oligarchs but by our friends and neighbors.

i really should try to get back to sleep, but i saw you never got a response and i strongly believe in giving people resources if they’re genuinely open to other ideas.

when it comes to being anti-capitalist, i think of the Mr. Gotcha comic

(www.reddit.com)

you can recognize capitalism as harmful and also “participate” in it when you have to survive in a society that offers no alternative, while you work towards said alternative.

i think of the frustration that can come from therapists being “paid to care.” a therapist can genuinely care while being paid - they need to eat.

i would recommend following people who are anti-capitalist, as well as minorities (racial/lgbt/disabled) so you can understand how capitalism harms people, and also learn about alternative ideas (since there are many). do understand that a lot of discussions may be emotionally charged and might make you feel uncomfortable. i have, and still often do, feel that way. generally i try not to argue, but i take the information in and reflect on it. what it means, why the person had the response, what is making me have my emotional response. i’ve found it so useful for educating myself as well as having better emotional regulation, empathy, patience, and compassion. there is no losing.

@reiver
There is lots of talking about a Fedi "culture" that allows this and expects that. But the real culture is that we allow these gatekeepers and bullies to shout, despite that they don't represent the Fediverse, "the community" or "the culture". Every time a developer folds the bullies win and we lose.
@lrhodes @liaizon

The separation between PDS and appview is a great advantage. I guess ActivityPods's is trying to do something similar by unify Solis and AP, but I don't see much talk about it.

ATProto also has something alike Zot's "nomadic identity". And while there has been work to get it working on ActivityPub, only a few software support it and many don't even care about implementing it.

A big problem of the AP side of fedi is that while seeing itself as the most decentralised in quantitative terms, in some qualitative aspect acts in a semi-centralised manner either by making migration harder and incomplete or by being suspicious of any tool that separates identity from log in credential (nomadic identity, multiple identities, etc). It's pretty obvious that many AP devs and sysadmins have a user lock-in mentally and only defend the self-hosting aspect of decentralisation.

@liaizon @thisismissem @laurenshof it's because FEPs aren't standards and the actual standards are not allowed to change

@liaizon I absolutely agree. I think the client-first development environment for ATProto makes this kind of work extremely emergent.

As @tsyesika said at FOSDEM in the Social Web Devroom, the ActivityPub social API ("C2S") is our equivalent to this programming interface. We need to get it kickstarted so we can build interesting social networking applications without having to build the server side, delivery, queuing, etc.

@evan @liaizon @tsyesika see you tomorrow

[C2S] Add Client-to-Server ActivityPub API support by pfefferle · Pull Request #2851 · Automattic/wordpress-activitypub

ActivityPub for WordPress. Contribute to Automattic/wordpress-activitypub development by creating an account on GitHub.

GitHub (github.com)

@jenniferplusplus @thisismissem @laurenshof ouch... so with a combination of these two things, what would need to change to get you psyched about participating in the standardization of all these under-standardized edges?

@pfefferle @evan @liaizon @tsyesika I was just going to say we have a meeting tomorrow!

@liaizon @thisismissem @laurenshof
I genuinely don't know. Lexicons?
They provide 2 critical things. One is schemas, which actually support coordination and interoperability. The other is namespacing, which actually avoids collisions and supports efficient filtering. But linked data makes that impossible.

@liaizon

We're trying to get this going in the SocialCG:

GitHub - swicg/activitypub-api: ActivityPub API Task Force repository.

ActivityPub API Task Force repository. Contribute to swicg/activitypub-api development by creating an account on GitHub.

GitHub (github.com)

I think @django has done great work to evaluate all the different servers. It would be cool to get to a reference server that developers could use.

@liaizon @thisismissem @laurenshof at a human level, I would need space where implementers can talk to each other without the crowd of armchair quarterbacks that always dominates the conversation