@janantos @iju @ariarhythmic @mellifluousbox @Mastodon @MastodonEngineering @Gargron

It's entirely possible to own a credit card and not use it

The point is to solve the problem of age verification without asking anyone's age, and using cc solves that problem

But you also want to solve the problem of addictive personalities who wind up stuck on gambling?

What

You ask far too much

Nothing can function in this world on this level of concern

Scope your concerns to reasonable goals please

@benroyce @iju @ariarhythmic @mellifluousbox @Mastodon @MastodonEngineering @Gargron absolutely. However that time, even if you don’t use it, the credit limit goes negative to your credit score in bank risk assesment.

@benroyce @vervain @ariarhythmic @Mastodon @mellifluousbox You're trying to deal with defeat before it even happens. Governments DGAF about your Mastodon instance. But they're happy to have you complying in advance.

@dalias @vervain @ariarhythmic @Mastodon @mellifluousbox

that's not what i said

the point you're making is the point i made to you already:

"of course if you're a small fish doing small fish things, you'll probably be fine for a long time"

that's the real answer

a 20 account mastodon instance will go 10 years before anyone cares about it and age verification. unless someone on your server gains attention of the fascists

then the no age verification will be the conceit to dig on you

@dalias @vervain @ariarhythmic @Mastodon @mellifluousbox

by the very same token, setting up goddamn shell corporations in foreign countries is not anything a mastodon server with 20 accounts is ever going to do. that was what i was pushing back against: going to absurd contortions to escape the age verification. no one is going to do that

@benroyce @vervain @ariarhythmic @Mastodon @mellifluousbox If you're a server with 20 accounts, it's probably not open registration anyway. In this case, the main "opsec" you should be doing is not publicly identifying who runs the server and what jurisdiction it's under.

The case I was thinking of is more when you have a medium-sized, semi-open (e.g. by request/invite) instance with maybe 1000 or so users, which suddenly finds itself under threat of a being required to verify ages for its users. If you're not comfortable doing civil disobedience and just refusing to do that, the responsible thing is to restructure ownership outside of the jurisdiction. Whether that involves a "shell company" or real transfer of operations to trusted people elsewhere.

@dalias @vervain @ariarhythmic @Mastodon @mellifluousbox

you're not thinking about how this will play out in reality

in reality they will not care if you don't have age verification if you have 5 users or 50,000

but then someone on your server will draw the govt's attention. could be in 10 days. could be in 10 years. only then

and in that moment, i don't care what obfuscation you have that you think will work. it will not work

then absent age verification will be the conceit to go after you

@benroyce @vervain @ariarhythmic @Mastodon @mellifluousbox The is absolutely what folks like me are talking about when we say "obeying in advance".

There will ALWAYS be a conceit to go after you if you're a target.

Kissing their asses 10 years in advance hoping it will not happen is a stupid strategy.

You either do the civil disobedience openly, or you mitigate the risks as best you can.

@dalias @vervain @ariarhythmic @Mastodon @mellifluousbox

why do you frame this as me kissing fascist ass?

i am talking about effective resistance

you are talking about suicide

the more accurate portrayal here is i am resisting intelligently

while you go up to a fascist and tap them on the shoulder and ask to be shot in the face

the issue here is being smart

it's not good enough in this world to have only a strong heart

you also need a strong mind

@benroyce @vervain @ariarhythmic @Mastodon @mellifluousbox Making all your users dox themselves or share their biometrics with an face scanning provider quietly affiliated with Palantir is not going to help you at all if you're not targeted, and not going to save you if you are.

All it's going to do is fuel fascism.

If you're not clear on this you shouldn't be running a service of this sort, but leaving it to folks who can make responsible decisions.

@dalias @vervain @ariarhythmic @Mastodon @mellifluousbox

if you look elsewhere in this thread i'm advocating for using credit cards for verification like valve does with steam

so the server doesn't have to deal with ids. they just run a $0 check

additionally, it allows your cc to be attached to your profile, so donations are a breeze

not enough donate. and unless more people do, you and i butting heads here will just all evaporate some day

reality my friend

idealism is for lost fools

@benroyce @vervain @ariarhythmic @Mastodon @mellifluousbox What are you going to do with existing users who don't have credit cards? And can't get them? Or who have credit cards but whose safety might be put at risk by having their legal identity tied to their account and past writings?

Yes, for capitalist services that are going to obey age verification mandates, they absolutely should be offering "charge my credit card" as an option. I would even pay a one-time $20+ fee for this, anything to be able to continue using the service without submitting to face scanning or ID.

But non-capitalist things like Mastodon instances treating this as a harmless way to obey is NOT a good idea. It will exclude exactly the people we need to be including.

@benroyce @vervain @ariarhythmic @Mastodon @mellifluousbox What are you going to do with existing users who don't have credit cards? And can't get them? Or who have credit cards but whose safety might be put at risk by having their legal identity tied to their account and past writings?

Yes, for capitalist services that are going to obey age verification mandates, they absolutely should be offering "charge my credit card" as an option. I would even pay a one-time $20+ fee for this, anything to be able to continue using the service without submitting to face scanning or ID.

But non-capitalist things like Mastodon instances treating this as a harmless way to obey is NOT a good idea. It will exclude exactly the people we need to be including.

@ariarhythmic @Mastodon @mellifluousbox

the problem isn't mastodon it's your govt

if mastodon servers don't implement age verification in those jurisdictions that make it law, those servers get shut down by that govt

so you're blaming the wrong entity

are you really asking servers to face legal punishment and then get shut down anyway?

don't get me wrong: be angry

*at your govt*

not mastodon

@benroyce
I’d boil this down to, you can’t solve a social problem with technology. You can mitigate some of its effects but the underlying social parameters are still there. Nothing is going to save us from bad law except good votes.
@ariarhythmic @Mastodon @mellifluousbox

@suzannealdrich @ariarhythmic @Mastodon @mellifluousbox

THANK YOU

are you listening, toxic idealists?

@benroyce
Also, and I’ll repeat this for those at the back:
Changing the system takes a lot of time and energy. There is no quick fix. The winner will always be the one that is more effective at networking and communication.
@ariarhythmic @Mastodon @mellifluousbox

@suzannealdrich @benroyce @ariarhythmic @Mastodon @mellifluousbox and willing to get their hands dirty

@benroyce @Mastodon @mellifluousbox Compliance with fascist laws is fascism.

@ariarhythmic @benroyce @Mastodon @mellifluousbox Anybody that wants to operate their business in a country has to abide by the laws of that country. It's why Proton has been subpoened and had to hand over logs. It's the whole reason Signal collects as little data as possible, so they don't have anything to give but can still obey court orders. The alternative is for them to just leave that country entirely and abandon users who live there.