It's demotivating to think that:
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“Code/Software has no value since it can be duplicated at no cost”
The first time I heard this was 20 years ago and this has always been true.
@DevWouter But it has tons of value! It's a non-rivalrous good. And that's GREAT in many ways. I am all for code being a non-rivalrous good.
But I don't feel the situation here is the same as it's been for the last 20 years. I don't feel the same way I've felt about it for the last 20 years.
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It's demotivating to think that:
- LLMs aren't good at producing original / novel work
- You still need experts to advance that stuff
- It will always be slower to move without using LLMs
- Once an innovation is done though, an innovation can always be scooped up by the LLM users
- "Bro why are you doing all this manually, I just vibe coded that in a weekend"Will it always be this way? It's depressing in the meanwhile, at least.
@cwebber im still resisting the belief that 'moving fast' is at all good or useful. sprinting is shitting out bad software to abandon next year, but most of us know that real value lies in the marathon of maintenance and careful conscious choices
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It's demotivating to think that:
- LLMs aren't good at producing original / novel work
- You still need experts to advance that stuff
- It will always be slower to move without using LLMs
- Once an innovation is done though, an innovation can always be scooped up by the LLM users
- "Bro why are you doing all this manually, I just vibe coded that in a weekend"Will it always be this way? It's depressing in the meanwhile, at least.
@cwebber
I just hope the bubble bursts while it's still practical to resist.
Once the unlimited investment dries up, most or all of the cloud LLM services will disappear, but if that happens after complete industry capture we are 100% boned. We'll end up with unlimited government subsidy like we have with brown energy. -
In a sense, the decision is somewhat made for us in that we're developing next-generation stuff that LLMs don't know how to auto-code at @spritely. We are working on core infrastructure that needs to be carefully thought about and written. LLMs introduce a lot of errors and aren't good at doing this kind of work on their own.
And the goal was always that our work is there to be lifted from, to spread outward, the way people have long drawn from the well of the MIT / Stanford research labs in CS for decades, but for decentralized networking today
But doing it now, in this way, in this environment, it's just really depressing and demotivating.
-
It's demotivating to think that:
- LLMs aren't good at producing original / novel work
- You still need experts to advance that stuff
- It will always be slower to move without using LLMs
- Once an innovation is done though, an innovation can always be scooped up by the LLM users
- "Bro why are you doing all this manually, I just vibe coded that in a weekend"Will it always be this way? It's depressing in the meanwhile, at least.
@cwebber Well… 9Gag was built entirely on that fast-scooping-of-slow-effort loop, wasn't it?
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@jkb wow are vibe coders the 9gag of code
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@DevWouter But it has tons of value! It's a non-rivalrous good. And that's GREAT in many ways. I am all for code being a non-rivalrous good.
But I don't feel the situation here is the same as it's been for the last 20 years. I don't feel the same way I've felt about it for the last 20 years.
Economic value which is indeed not the best way to measure value
Personally I have yet to see a product where the value is increased by LLM.
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In a sense, the decision is somewhat made for us in that we're developing next-generation stuff that LLMs don't know how to auto-code at @spritely. We are working on core infrastructure that needs to be carefully thought about and written. LLMs introduce a lot of errors and aren't good at doing this kind of work on their own.
And the goal was always that our work is there to be lifted from, to spread outward, the way people have long drawn from the well of the MIT / Stanford research labs in CS for decades, but for decentralized networking today
But doing it now, in this way, in this environment, it's just really depressing and demotivating.
-
In a sense, the decision is somewhat made for us in that we're developing next-generation stuff that LLMs don't know how to auto-code at @spritely. We are working on core infrastructure that needs to be carefully thought about and written. LLMs introduce a lot of errors and aren't good at doing this kind of work on their own.
And the goal was always that our work is there to be lifted from, to spread outward, the way people have long drawn from the well of the MIT / Stanford research labs in CS for decades, but for decentralized networking today
But doing it now, in this way, in this environment, it's just really depressing and demotivating.
@cwebber Agreed. It’s making free and open source software development feel less rewarding. Less meaningful.
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It's demotivating to think that:
- LLMs aren't good at producing original / novel work
- You still need experts to advance that stuff
- It will always be slower to move without using LLMs
- Once an innovation is done though, an innovation can always be scooped up by the LLM users
- "Bro why are you doing all this manually, I just vibe coded that in a weekend"Will it always be this way? It's depressing in the meanwhile, at least.
@cwebber For what it’s worth I think that we are eventually going to recognize “needing to throw massive computation at things” as a symptom of language and discoverability shortcomings that we’ll find better ways to address. We already package utility up in libraries and deterministic generators, but finding and learning what resources do what remains difficult.
I think there’s still a better future out there where solving new problems is still a non-captured contribution to the common good.
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In a sense, the decision is somewhat made for us in that we're developing next-generation stuff that LLMs don't know how to auto-code at @spritely. We are working on core infrastructure that needs to be carefully thought about and written. LLMs introduce a lot of errors and aren't good at doing this kind of work on their own.
And the goal was always that our work is there to be lifted from, to spread outward, the way people have long drawn from the well of the MIT / Stanford research labs in CS for decades, but for decentralized networking today
But doing it now, in this way, in this environment, it's just really depressing and demotivating.
@cwebber It's difficult to not think of Anathem. Communities of theorists living an ascetic life away from the rest of society.
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In a sense, the decision is somewhat made for us in that we're developing next-generation stuff that LLMs don't know how to auto-code at @spritely. We are working on core infrastructure that needs to be carefully thought about and written. LLMs introduce a lot of errors and aren't good at doing this kind of work on their own.
And the goal was always that our work is there to be lifted from, to spread outward, the way people have long drawn from the well of the MIT / Stanford research labs in CS for decades, but for decentralized networking today
But doing it now, in this way, in this environment, it's just really depressing and demotivating.
@cwebber @spritely I mean the problem as I see it is: The people who primarily benefit from the work aren't paying for it, and there's no way to get them to contribute back ("licenses" no longer exist). So the art can only be extended by individual humans expending their savings or going into personal debt. (In theory basic research could additionally be funded by corporations, but since people who care about the art exist as a resource to be exploited, there is no reason for them to do so.)
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@jorgecandeias @cwebber @spritely
It's not demotivation that comes first, but rather a simple survival of those who are out of money, out of funding for the choice of doing things that last and that bridges to the future.
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@cwebber @spritely I mean the problem as I see it is: The people who primarily benefit from the work aren't paying for it, and there's no way to get them to contribute back ("licenses" no longer exist). So the art can only be extended by individual humans expending their savings or going into personal debt. (In theory basic research could additionally be funded by corporations, but since people who care about the art exist as a resource to be exploited, there is no reason for them to do so.)
@cwebber @spritely This is similar to the problem I have making video games: Some portion of my audience will pirate my work. Technically that doesn't harm me, *but* if *everyone* pirates the game then I don't get any money and I don't get to keep making games. I decide I don't care because not everyone pirates games and *some* of the people playing the game will pay for it. LLMs, for code, sets up the possibility the entire audience will be pirating the work. Which is wild since my code is MIT
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In a sense, the decision is somewhat made for us in that we're developing next-generation stuff that LLMs don't know how to auto-code at @spritely. We are working on core infrastructure that needs to be carefully thought about and written. LLMs introduce a lot of errors and aren't good at doing this kind of work on their own.
And the goal was always that our work is there to be lifted from, to spread outward, the way people have long drawn from the well of the MIT / Stanford research labs in CS for decades, but for decentralized networking today
But doing it now, in this way, in this environment, it's just really depressing and demotivating.
-
It's demotivating to think that:
- LLMs aren't good at producing original / novel work
- You still need experts to advance that stuff
- It will always be slower to move without using LLMs
- Once an innovation is done though, an innovation can always be scooped up by the LLM users
- "Bro why are you doing all this manually, I just vibe coded that in a weekend"Will it always be this way? It's depressing in the meanwhile, at least.
@cwebber yeah but programming was always about solving problems anyways. If we take what you say about LLMs here as like the reality of how they are used and worked or whatever. Then the thing to think here is that what is unravelled is that for the most part of the last 20 years these guys were just solving problems other people already solved over and over. -
@cwebber yeah but programming was always about solving problems anyways. If we take what you say about LLMs here as like the reality of how they are used and worked or whatever. Then the thing to think here is that what is unravelled is that for the most part of the last 20 years these guys were just solving problems other people already solved over and over.@cwebber and if that is true then that isn't good either.
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@cwebber @spritely This is similar to the problem I have making video games: Some portion of my audience will pirate my work. Technically that doesn't harm me, *but* if *everyone* pirates the game then I don't get any money and I don't get to keep making games. I decide I don't care because not everyone pirates games and *some* of the people playing the game will pay for it. LLMs, for code, sets up the possibility the entire audience will be pirating the work. Which is wild since my code is MIT
@cwebber @spritely This said, I want to give you the flipside to the process you're describing: I am currently creating a small programming language which exists for no purpose except for me to make games for the Game Boy and NES. When I look at my language, I think: *An LLM user could not use this language, because there is not a sufficient corpus to generate code from¹*. And this sparks joy in me
¹ And a significant portion of the corpus is testcases designed to fail
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One will be an event probably full of divisive politics, hate, and abuse.
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@james thanks!
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